View Full Version : Jim's BHG-b-gone and Detonation rebuilds
Update May 12, 2008: All Done! She started up first try!
Update May 31, 2008: Break-in period is done. Time to SHRED
Update June 3, 2008: Broken again.....
Update Aug 23, 2008: Fixed and on the road again with forged and coated internals!
Update Sept 15, 2008: SHREDDIN at the track. She's golden. :-)
It's about time I made this thread.... I have a lot to cover! The major purpose of this re-build is to never EVER have a BHG while on holidays in the middle of nowhere again! I was lucky last time to be able to fix it where I was staying, but once is still enough.
I'm going to document where I got stuff done and where my parts come from so that everyone reading this can use the info, particularly if you're in Alberta.
SHOP WORK DONE:
- Injectors cleaned and flowtested. ($168 @ RCTS)
- Block and head sonic cleaned and milled (0.008" from each @ Precise Engine Rebuilders)
- Cylinders honed
- Rods resized and shortened 0.008", new ARP rod bolts
- Full engine balancing
- Block and head re-cleaned after lapping, intake manifolds sonic cleaned
- (See separate posts for Precise Engine Rebuilders $$$)
- WB bung relocated about 1.5ft further down the downpipe.
MY WORK DONE:
- Pull and disassemble the engine and transmission.
- Check clearances/mic all sorts of stuff.
- Sandblast/beadblast and repaint various metal pieces.
- Head ported and polished.
- Block and head lapped.
- Valves hand lapped.
- Oil squirters pressure tested.
- Power Steering pump overhauled and painted.
- Block painted.
- New air filter and piping fitted for my CAI system.
- Tons of OEM parts ordered, all from 1sttoyotaparts.com (Bob Bridge Toyota, Portland OR)
- Differential inspected, painted, and reinstalled.
- Head Assembled with Comp Cams valve springs and new stem seals.
- Clutch slave cylinder overhaul
- Clean all oil passages, clearance checking with new bearings
- Transmission re-assembled with new gaskets.
- Fit the crank scraper and do some MAJOR filing.
- Remove two interfering rivets from the MHG.
- Engine re-assembled.
- Oil catch can piping completed.
AFTERMARKET PARTS ACQUIRED:
- ARP Head Stud kit, ARP 203-4202. ($120 @ mopac)
- ARP Rod Bolt set, ARP 203-6004. ($47 @ mopac)
- Valve springs, Comp Cams #975-12 x2. ($62 @ mopac)
- Fumoto F-104N oil drain valve, ($41 @ Diesel Services Canada)
- Fire Extinguisher. ($20 @ Home Depot)
- 5L of Redline 5w-30. ($47 @ mopac)
- 12L of Shell dino oil for the break in. ($25? @ costco)
- Crank oil scraper ($107 incl shipping @ crank-scrapers.com)
- 7M oil pump hardpipe, ($160 incl shipping @ arizonaperformance)
- HKS 1.2mm bead type MHG ($117 incl shipping @ HPF via Amazon)
- Air Filter ($10 @ driftmotion)
- Oil catch can ($35 @ driftmotion)
- SS braided clutch line ($38 @ driftmotion)
- Redline assembly lube (4oz $7.26 @ mopac)
- Second bung. 18mmx1.25mm. ($3 @ Midas)
- Permatex Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube. 236ml. ($20 @ partsource)
I'll be covering some of these items in more detail in other posts.
Lets start this off with some "before" photos. :-)
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/Supra_front_right_%28small%29.jpg
Summer 2007
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/engine-complete-%28small%29.jpg
My current setup (before the teardown started)
Next up: The engine pull!
Jim
Here's my garage:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/body-front-left-%28small%29.jpg
Hoist and engine stand in front
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/body-back-left-%28small%29.jpg
Toyota protective covers rule!
The engine pull.....
POOF!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Empty-engine-bay.jpg
That was easy! Hehe... See my engine pull thread for more info: http://supraclub.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=2027
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Engine-on-stand%28small%29.jpg
There she is!
Oil pan fun....
I took my rusty old oil pan down to Consolidated Compressor in the S.E., these guys are a DIY sandblasting outfit. I had great fun! Sorry no pics of that... but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Cost was $20.
After sandblasting my oil pan (carefully, and they turned the pressure down) I got out the silver Duplicolour Engine Enamel, put on at least six light coats, and here's the result:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Painted_oil_pan_with_valve.JPG
That's a Fumoto F-104N engine oil drain valve on there that I got from Diesel Services Canada in Red Deer for $42 shipped. The nipple on the end does protrude a little further down than I'm comfortable with, so I think I'll cut it off.
In hindsight, I really should have insisted on the F104! (BTW this thing rocks)
I love this new look! I'll be putting on some engine undercoating gunk on the lowest section when I'm in a practical mood... lol.
Black_fin
02-28-2008, 06:59 PM
Good stuff, man! I really like this car. My HG will likely blow on the coquihalla or at race city this summer. It's a matter of when and where really.
Good stuff, man! I really like this car. My HG will likely blow on the coquihalla or at race city this summer. It's a matter of when and where really.
Thanks! Yeah RaceCity lapping days with Track Techniques are at the top of my list for spring.
If you've ever wondered what an R154 looks like inside, here you go:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/R154_right_side.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/R154-disassembed-right-side.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/R154-disassembled-left-side.jpg
Machine shop work so far:
I took my head and block (with the front timing cover attached) and oil pan to Precise Engine Rebuilders in early february. It took them about three weeks to get everything done.
Here's the list:
- The block, head, and oil pan were all sonic cleaned. I highly recommend this over hot-tanking as it does not dissolve the softer metals such as the plugs and oil shaft bearings in the block.
The block:
- The block was inspected for flatness, and cylinder taper and out-of-round. They found 0.002" taper, and 0.001" out-of-round for the cylinder bores, which is negligible.
- The cylinder bores were honed, in preparation for new piston rings.
- The tops of the bores were reamed.
- The deck surface was milled down 0.008" using a CBN machine. The 8 thou taken off was necessary due to corrosion and fire rings on the deck surface. They did it as slow as possible per my request (smoother result).
The head:
- The head was inspected for warpage, and they found it warped 0.008"
- The head surface was milled down 0.008" using a PCD machine. They did it as slow as possible per my request (smoother result).
I'll be getting my rods resized and shortened (more on that later) along with a full engine balancing at Precise, once I lap the block and head.
Total cost for this job: $458
azrael
02-28-2008, 11:05 PM
Your car is shiny.
Looking forward to more of this thread.
Haha yeah I'm a little obsessive about cleaning stuff! I hate rust and grime.
azrael
02-29-2008, 12:54 AM
Your car needs more dryer hose.
Dan_Gyoba
02-29-2008, 08:56 AM
So I guess your R154 will be in known condition when you're done, hey? Are you going to replace that thrust washer that seems to be the transmissions weakest link?
So I guess your R154 will be in known condition when you're done, hey? Are you going to replace that thrust washer that seems to be the transmissions weakest link?
That's a tough question... I original disassembled the thing to try and find out why it would sometimes catch while shifting from 2nd to 3rd. But I can't find anything obviously wrong. I put a thread up about it on SM and got a few comments and other pictures, but nothing conclusive.
As for the thrust washer, I'd have to do a complete disassembly! But it's more a specialized tools issue than anything else. I'll look into it to see what I need. It looks perfect though.
Edit: Tools... yeah.... like a 5 ton press! I'd need pullers too.
Bri-Guy
02-29-2008, 10:20 AM
Excellent thread and work. Looks like you are making the efforts to make sure that everything gets done exactly the way they should be done. Great documentation, really helpful. Looking forward to monitoring how all of this works out.
Beautiful pieces.
Excellent thread and work. Looks like you are making the efforts to make sure that everything gets done exactly the way they should be done. Great documentation, really helpful. Looking forward to monitoring how all of this works out.
Beautiful pieces.
Thank you! More to come...
celica83_gts
02-29-2008, 08:26 PM
A couple of points (you probably know...)
-Stay away from the synth oil until the new rings are seated.
-Since the head was warped, how straight are the cam journals? Did the shop correct them?
-Take the ARP rod bolts in with the rods, they need to be pressed in before the resizing.
The car looks great, hope to see it sometime.
A couple of points (you probably know...)
-Stay away from the synth oil until the new rings are seated.
-Since the head was warped, how straight are the cam journals? Did the shop correct them?
-Take the ARP rod bolts in with the rods, they need to be pressed in before the resizing.
The car looks great, hope to see it sometime.
Thanks for checking, I have that stuff covered but it's all too easy to forget something important! This is my first time doing such a major rebuild after all. If anyone has "gotchas" or tips or things to check that they think of, please post up! I may know it already.... but what if I don't? I'll be thanking you! :-)
- Synth oil, check. I've heard about this, so I bought 12L of shell dino oil a few weeks ago. Should be good for a couple changes. Say at 20km, then 500km, and maybe one more? I'll put the Redline in around 1500km's. In this vein, the crank and pistons will be going in WITHOUT engine oil. I plan to use WD-40 on the cylinder walls to prevent initial carbon buildup, and Lubriplate 105 for the bearings.
- Cam journals, check. I spun the cams when I took the head off the block and they were perfectly free. I did this again (bolted them down, no valves etc) after getting my head back from Precise and they're still perfectly free. So it appears that the 0.008" warpage on the head has not affected this.
- ARP rod bolts, check. The shop will be taking the old bolts out, putting the new ones in, and resizing my rods all in one go. As for pressing in, absolutely! I wouldn't want the rods re-warped from the new bolts and have to get them resized twice! hehe... man that would suck. :mrgreen:
Hope to see you at the meets!
While I'm at it I may as well explain the rod resizing/shortening procedure that I'm getting Precise to do (my current understanding anyway):
Rod resizing/shortening work:
1. Remove old rod bolts.
2. Machine whatever amount is needed from the rod caps.
3. Machine 0.008" from the rod big-ends (the other mating surface).
Why #3? Since the block was decked 8 thou, this will allow the pistons to stay at the stock protrusion (20 thou?), so that squish is not affected, and valve clearances are maintained. Then I can get a 1.2mm HKS MHG that'll bump up the compression just a little bit. The thinner the gasket, the more reliable (and less expensive!) it is.
4. Install and torque the new rod bolts with the caps in place.
5. Bore/hone the oval shaped hole until it is perfectly round again.
6. Balance the rods end-for-end (part of my engine balancing).
7. Bill me... :rolleyes:
I put a thread up on SM a little while ago asking about rod shortening: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65249
celica83_gts
03-01-2008, 07:53 PM
Another tip, don't clean the cam journals down to smooth metal. They are coated from the factory and look like crap after running. The first instinct is to polish them, but removing the coating increases clearances and drops oil pressure.
Supra_Soul
03-01-2008, 08:42 PM
I found this write-up on breaking in engines on the net. I read through it and not only does he sound like he knows what he's talking about but most of the info complies with what I have been told by people who race and have built more engines than I have seen.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Another tip, don't clean the cam journals down to smooth metal. They are coated from the factory and look like crap after running. The first instinct is to polish them, but removing the coating increases clearances and drops oil pressure.
I'd like to be exact here, so bear with me.... when you say "cam journals", you are referring to the machined round parts of the camshaft that ride in the bearings machined into the head, right?
I've left my camshafts as-is (with the engine oil still on them) to prevent any kind of oxidization or rust. Oh...except for blasting the oiling holes with brake cleaner and air to rid them of any junk. Anyone know what they're made from?
Here's my head as it came back from the sonic cleaner... bling bling!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Top_of_Head%28small%29.jpg
I found this write-up on breaking in engines on the net. I read through it and not only does he sound like he knows what he's talking about but most of the info complies with what I have been told by people who race and have built more engines than I have seen.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I found this page a while back on SM, and while I agree with his recommendations, I think his reasons for why and a lot of other stuff on there is total bullshit! :o
I base this opinion largely on a post I read by 'Nick M' on SM (who I trust to be a good source on this subject) that went over that 'break_in_secrets' page. It took me a while to find it again... but eventually it turned up: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=384824&postcount=48
To anyone else checking this out, I recommend reading the whole SM thread. It's good info as far as I can tell.
celica83_gts
03-02-2008, 12:06 AM
I'd like to be exact here, so bear with me.... when you say "cam journals", you are referring to the machined round parts of the camshaft that ride in the bearings machined into the head, right?
Correct.
Some newly "refurbished" parts!
Lower steering column, before:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Rusty_Lower_Steering_Column.jpg
And after! (The rubber midsection cover will go on after the paint's fully dry)
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Lower_Steering_Column_Painted.JPG
Your car needs more dryer hose.
Here you go! LOL (painted steering rack, yum)
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Steering_Rack_Painted%28small%29.jpg
azrael
03-02-2008, 12:27 AM
Here you go! LOL (painted steering rack, yum)
Hah! Dryer hose ftmfw!
Looking good so far, Jim!
Supra_Newfie
03-02-2008, 10:23 AM
Nice work Jim. I love reading detailed work. Keep it coming.
Grant
Nice work Jim. I love reading detailed work. Keep it coming.
Grant
Thanks Grant, you should see my OEM parts replacement list! Yikes! and it doesn't include a bunch of parts that I already have from an Engine Overhaul Gasket Set (yeah the big one).
Supra_Newfie
03-02-2008, 12:41 PM
Post it up then! :)
Yeah, I'm afraid to look at the list of parts I'm after buying this past year after my resto.
Grant
Funkycheeze
03-02-2008, 04:00 PM
I have some upgraded thrust washers left over from my build - you can take that opportunity to put in a beefier main bearing sandwich plate from marlin crawler. You can also replace the bearings and synchros, and really take everything apart to figure out the shifting issues - probably some of the shim clips need to be replaced with thicker ones,.
I would do it now, while it is easy - trust me.
I have some upgraded thrust washers left over from my build - you can take that opportunity to put in a beefier main bearing sandwich plate from marlin crawler. You can also replace the bearings and synchros, and really take everything apart to figure out the shifting issues - probably some of the shim clips need to be replaced with thicker ones,.
I would do it now, while it is easy - trust me.
Thanks for the offer. I'll need a press and a bearing puller. I can cart this tranny wherever so if anyone already has these tools and a bit of spare time, I'll get the parts organized.
That's the big overhaul option... the other option I've been thinking of is much simpler. Replace both restrict pins with new ones. It's the restrict pin that pushes the stick back to the middle when you move it to the left that may be worn out.... that would help the stick get back to the middle faster when shifting from 2nd to 3rd.
I would like to replace the 1st gear thrust washer, no doubt. But at the same time I'm only pushing ~320HP at the crank. I'll debate this in my head for a bit. ;)
Post it up then! :)
Yeah, I'm afraid to look at the list of parts I'm after buying this past year after my resto.
Grant
OEM parts list (check the last edit date for currentness):
- Manual transmission gasket kit, 04331-14040.
- Oil filter. 90915-YZZD3.
- Battery tie-down. 74404-14310.
- Thermostat, 90916-03078. T Gasket, 16341-35010 (check the box for one).
- Oil pipe from cam cover, 12263-42010.
- LSD oil.
- Timing belt, 13568-42011
- Replacement nuts for exhaust manifold stay, 90119-08683 x2
- Oil Pan FIPG, 00295-00103
- Transmission FIPG, 00295-01281
- Radiator cap, 16401-63010
- Piston ring set, 13011-42011
- Piston pin snap rings, 90521-25001 x12
- Crankshaft bearings, 11071-43010-01, 11701-43010-02 x3, 11701-43010-03, 11701-43010-01 x2
- Con-Rod bearings, 13041-42010-02 x6
- Oil filter adapter relief valve spring, 15132-21010
- Oil pump relief valve spring, 15132-46010
- Oil strainer o-ring, 96721-19025
- Block dowel pins, 90250-08120 x4
- Lower speedometer cable, 83710-14800
- Intake surge tank to manifold gasket, 17176-42020
- Transmission restrict pins, 33280-35082, 33280-35091
- Camshaft to head bolts, 91611-60835 x4
- Rear diff plug gaskets, 12157-10010 x2
- Steering rack bushings, 45517-24020 and 45516-14021
- PS rack pressure o-ring, 44327-12010
- PS pump gasket kit, 04446-30090
- Clutch slave cylinder kit, 04313-14011
- Oil filter adapter to block gasket, 96732-31070
- Oil filter relief valve bolt o-ring, 15134-20010
- Oil cooler return o-rings, 90430-12031 x2
Not included (thankfully) are the many parts I still have from an Engine Overhaul Gasket Set I bought a year or two ago.
And the grand total??? ~$660 plus shipping from 1sttoyotaparts.com (Bob Bridge Toyota)
Current parts/tools needed (use or buy):
- Lapping plate (Edit: got one)
- Junk 7M valves (two intake, two exhaust) to protect my valve seats during cylinder head polishing work. (Edit: I didn't bother with this. The head is reassembled now)
Dan_Gyoba
03-03-2008, 10:41 AM
Well, I do have an extra set of valves, but they're not "junk" ones. They're supposed to be still good ones... Still, I'm starting to think that I might need a bit of cash more than I need them...
annoyingrob
03-03-2008, 03:38 PM
I vote to requild the tranny while it's apart. Not so much for the power considerations, just for the smoother shifting.
Head porting (in progress):
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Work_in_progress.JPG
I have just completed porting out the intake and exhaust ports right below the valve seat. There were some lips on the short side radius, and also some lips (in the other direction) on the long side. Right where the machined hole meets the bumpy cast surface. Here are some before and after shots:
Intake port before porting:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Intake_port_valve_end_before_porting%28small%29.jp g
And after:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Intake_port_valve_end_after_porting%28small%29.jpg
On the exhaust side, I did the same thing, as well as clean and polish the runners. I still have some tricky bits to get right around the valve stem.
Exhaust port before polishing:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Exhaust_port_before_polishing%28small%29.jpg
And after:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Exhaust_port_after_polishing%28small%29.jpg
I still have the intake port matching to do. In addition to the porting and polishing work, I de-burred all the coolant and oil holes in the head and block, putting a small chamfer on them to prevent cracks from starting due to the rough edges from decking.
Coolant holes before (head):
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Coolant_holes_before_chamfer%28small%29.jpg
And after (head):
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Coolant_holes_after_chamfer%28small%29.jpg
That's it for now!
I found a site with some great pictures of head work here: http://users.tpg.com.au/users/loats/technical/7mge/headporting.html
It looks like they did the valve stems too... more work!
Rip Rock
03-03-2008, 08:10 PM
Great work! looks good so far:)
Great work! looks good so far:)
Thanks!
So the full rotating assembly (pistons, rods, pulley,crank,flywheel,pressure-plate) are off to Precise to get fully balanced. They say they can get it down to 0.4 of a gram (or maybe it was 4 grams), :woot:
Looks like I may end up buying the RCTS lapping plate outright, gah!
Of course with this stuff, tomorrow always means tomorrow-tomorrow!
Once I chamfered the holes on the block and got everything else organized for some sonic cleaning and another trip to Consolidated Compressor (more sandblasting, yahoo!) it was well past 6pm...
I HAVE A LAPPING DISC!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Lapping_disc_box.JPG
The box...
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Lapping_disc_top%28small%29.jpg
Top
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Lapping_disc_bottom%28small%29.jpg
Bottom
I also have some Loctite "Clover" lapping compound, in Very Fine 500 grit.
I got the disc from RCTS for $340. It weighs about 30lbs. Once I'm done lapping my block and head with this thing, it's available for use!
The more people that use this, the better! It cost a lot, so I'd like it to be used for other builds too. You can rent it for a nominal fee, or buy it outright once I'm done.
I also have a demo video of how to lap from RCTS. The lapping compound came in a 1lb can, so I have loads! But it's so fine grit that you'd only want to use it on a well machined surface or you'd be there all day.
Cheers,
Jim
annoyingrob
03-11-2008, 09:26 AM
you're going to get a LOT of use renting that out......
you're going to get a LOT of use renting that out......
Great!!! :D
Supra_Soul
03-11-2008, 09:02 PM
Ok, I feel kinda like a newb asking this, but what does this do? I have known for some time that mating surfaces required special prepping for a MHG, but never actually figured out what it was.
If I had to guess, I would say it simply smooths it out as the MHG will not conform to imperfections as a paper one would. Is this correct?
Ok, I feel kinda like a newb asking this, but what does this do? I have known for some time that mating surfaces required special prepping for a MHG, but never actually figured out what it was.
If I had to guess, I would say it simply smooths it out as the MHG will not conform to imperfections as a paper one would. Is this correct?
Yeah, that's correct. With the lapping disc and compound, you grind the tops of the ridges on the surface down a few microns to achieve a very very smooth finish (think glass).
To give you an idea of some numbers, a good surfacing job by a machine shop that takes it slow will get you a roughness average anywhere from 15-35 microns. That's using a PCD machine on the head. For the block, if they are using a CBN machine, you can expect a 25-50 micron RA.
When you look at the surface, you will see lines across it from the milling process. The rule of thumb here (courtesy of Reg) is that if you can file down your fingernail on this surface, it's too rough.
With the lapping disc ( or plate ) and the right lapping compound (they come in different grits) you can achieve a finish of 5 microns or less.
Now headgaskets.... HKS specifies a minimum RA of 15 microns for their gaskets. Cometic specifies 50. That extra conformity of the cometic allows people to use it on a good surface without lapping.... but averaged over a hundred motors, it's just not going to be as reliable. Greddy doesn't have a specific number for theirs... they say "just like it came from the factory, as smooth as possible."
Questions/Rebuttals welcome!
I've decided against resizing the rods and replacing the bolts. After talking to Reg, he has never had any cases of broken bolts, and I cannot find any cases on the net, so it's overkill for my power goals.
Plus, I can use the toyota bearings and have no worries about rod clearance, and I know the rods are already perfect so I don't have to worry about a resizing that isn't exactly in spec across all six.
Definately doing the balance job though...
EDIT: The rod resizing is back on the agenda, and permanently this time. My big-end holes are warped about a thou out-of-round. I found out this is normal too... no mention of that in the TSRM. doh!
Piggity
03-12-2008, 05:26 PM
How many times do you go over the surface of the block with that? And with what grits of compound?
How many times do you go over the surface of the block with that? And with what grits of compound?
I'm actually doing this tonight. I'll be going over it until the lines that I can see are gone. This should take about half an hour to an hour.
Since both surfaces have been machined well, there is very little I need to take off, so I'll be using the single 500 grit compound I have. It will take longer than if I used say a 300 and then a 500, but I don't mind. The 500 should give me the finish I want.
So, at maybe 3-5 seconds per pass, I'm looking at around 350-700 times. :-)
Dan_Gyoba
03-12-2008, 07:21 PM
Just as a note...
Because the lapping block is maniplulated by hand, one must take extreme care to remove material from the block, and particularly the soft, aluminium head evenly. It is surprisingly easy to remove too much material in one spot, resulting in an imperceptable depression or unevenness in the head surface, which is practically guaranteed to become a blown head gasket spot in the not-too-distant future.
Bri-Guy
03-12-2008, 09:08 PM
Dan, is there anything you don't know about?????? I guess that 11 years of reseach helps I guess.
suprago
03-12-2008, 09:49 PM
What's the diameter on the disk, 10, 15 cms?
What's the diameter on the disk, 10, 15 cms?
It is 20cm wide. In addition, the disc is flat across the entire lapping surface to within one ten-thousanth of an inch.
I have finished lapping the block. I used an end-to-end slide with constant spinning of the disc, working each area of the block as evenly as possible, and trying to push the disc along and let it do the work without pushing down at all.
I made a video of some parts of the work, which I may post up if I can find a suitable location with enough bandwidth.
suprago
03-12-2008, 11:21 PM
Hard to get hollows with that size and moving as well. You'd have to work at it.
Dan_Gyoba
03-13-2008, 04:55 PM
Dan, is there anything you don't know about?????? I guess that 11 years of reseach helps I guess.
Sure, I learn new stuff about these cars all the time, but as you've noted, I've been looking into this stuff for a number of years, and I have a good memory.
So, I've finished lapping both the head and block. I took them both down to what I figured is a good medium between smoothness and flatness. The surface is unlined in most places, but some lines are still present. I can't feel them with my nail so my guess is 15 microns or less.
Off to the sonic cleaner at Precise tomorrow!
I'm back from Precise, and I still have my head. I'm going to lap it some more, and lap the valves too. Man, I have specialty tools out the ying-yang at this point!
Tools/stuff I aquired, this is just from today!
- Permatex Prussion Blue, ($6 @ Acklands Grainger)
- Permatex Dielectric Grease, ($15 @ Acklands Grainger)
- Valve shim adjuster, ($15 @ Canadian Tire)
- Valve lapping tool, ($12 @ Canadian Tire)
I had a very long talk with Peter at Precise Engine Rebuilders today. He's a very knowledgeable guy... apparently he used to work at the company that handles Toyota's extended warranty service, and they rebuild hundreds of engines.
Anyway, he mounted one of my rods in a machine with a dial indicator showing in 10 thousanths of an inch, and spun it around. You could see the needle moving... and it was out about 1 thousanth. Definately needs to be resized.
Of course at this point it's more than worth it to shorten the rod, and press in the ARP bolts. So that's the final plan.
I am specifying an exact size for him to machine the big end holes to, and I'll be running the math to match up the big-ends with the different sized crank journals after all this is done.
azrael
03-14-2008, 07:43 PM
It's fun watching this get more and more out of hand, and watching you spend more and more money as it escalates.
It's fun watching this get more and more out of hand, and watching you spend more and more money as it escalates.
Hahahaha!!! Well luckily enough the tools I've needed have been fairly cheap (for the most part!). I'll probably sell some stuff off when I'm done this.
So far, I have been able to stay away from forged pistons and a re-bore. It is tempting, but total overkill too. Man oh man...
Oh, by the way, I'm building this motor to handle 450hp at the crank (limited by pistons), and then running 320hp through it. Reliability is my goal here.
My current estimate of total cost is in the $2500 range. That includes all parts, tools, shop work, etc.
Here's my measuring tool collection. (Thank you Princess Auto!)
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Measuring_Tools.JPG
Just finished lapping the valves... I'm happy I don't have to do this on a 32 valve engine, 24 is enough!
FYI everyone, I'm updating my first post as I go along. It's serving as a DONE/TODO list for me.
suprago
03-16-2008, 06:00 PM
The valve springs that you mentioned in Post #1,
- Valve springs, Comp Cams #975-12 x2. ($62 @ mopac)
Are these the small block ones?
The valve springs that you mentioned in Post #1,
- Valve springs, Comp Cams #975-12 x2. ($62 @ mopac)
Are these the small block ones?
Nope, they're the inner spring from a Chevy Big Block dual spring kit. Have a look at this: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55363
suprago
03-16-2008, 11:42 PM
Duhhhhh! Sorry I was going from memory(which is old and worn). I had remembered reading some posts about that and was interested but never followed it up.
I think I might be trying to change a set of springs without pulling the head. When I rebuilt my 7M-GTE I checked the springs and they were within specs, so I cheaped out and put the old set back in. Kicked myself ever since but that price makes the excercise worthwhile, especially as the motor is out and on the stand right now.
I didn't notice that when I originally read your post. I saw earlier that you had done some updates and went back and re-read.
Thanks for the joggle.
Good call! :-) I can't wait to get these things in.
So how are you going to compress the valve springs? How do you stop the valve stem from moving? Something down the spark plug hole?
suprago
03-17-2008, 06:32 PM
I've got to go digging in my tool box. I did a valve spring change on my Dodge truck a long time back and I had a compressor that fitted over the top of the spring retainer and had 2 jaws that latched onto a lower spring coil. Turn the screw on top and compress the sping, then a bitch to get the collets out. Looks like a cross between a 2 jaw gear puller and a suspension spring compressor but sized to fit a valve spring.
Some soft rope down the plug hole should do it, although I have heard of using compressed air. Will see....
I've just bit the bullet and ordered my huge list of Toyota parts! (I updated that post).
The total came to $644 plus shipping. At least I have options.... if I ordered it locally I'd be paying well over a thousand!
OK Folks, make sure you pay extra attention to step number 1c in the TSRM for the power steering pump removal, before you go disassembling it!
So, we're talking about this baby:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/PS_pump_assembled_front%28small%29.jpg
Step 1c (and I quote!): "Remove the drive belt, pulley installation nut, pulley and woodruff key."
Fast-forward to disassembly Step 9a: "Using a plastic hammer, tap out the rotor shaft assembly."
Now, this is what you get when you mess up the ALL-IMPORTANT Step 1c:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Damaged_shaft_hole%28small%29.jpg
DOH!
Now...., what was that pesky little woodruff key I was talking about?
I present, Exhibit A!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/ExhibitA.JPG
Eeexxhibit A!!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/EeexxhibitA.JPG
aaannnddd Eeeeexxxxhhhibit A!!!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/EeeeexxxxhhhibitA.JPG
The little tyke up close:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Woodruff_key_pic_1.JPG
I think it'll be ok... so the long and short of it was that the inner metal tube was not visible behind the oil seal (not pictured) and so I had no idea that it was hitting metal until the "taps" turned into "whacks"!
Hope you have as much fun reading this post as I did taking those pictures... lol. Great way to turn a lousy situation on its head!
Jim
azrael
03-18-2008, 11:23 PM
Oh, Jim. That's why we love you!
Good to know for the future, at least.
Man, I'm cracking up every time I look at my own photos! LOL!
So I got all my stuff back from Precise today. Very happy day!
Now I have everything I need except the stock replacement stuff to complete this project. All my aftermarket stuff is here. I should take a few pictures of it all!
Here's the breakdown from Precise:
Precise Work Order #2
- Balance the whole rotating assembly, $280
- Sonic clean block and head (again) and intake manifolds, $110
- Resize and shorten rods, install ARP bolts, $120
- Shop supplies / Environmental, $40.80
Total including GST: $578.34
annoyingrob
03-29-2008, 03:48 AM
so at what point does it start to cost as much as a 2JZ?
so at what point does it start to cost as much as a 2JZ?
I don't know. How much would a late model VVTI 2JZ front clip with bellhousing, motor mounts, intercooler and piping, gasket set, redone wiring harness, fuel pump, oil pan, etc cost? :-) Did I miss anything? Most likely...
Edit: Just out of curiosity, I did a rough calculation using the 2JZ swap parts sticky on SM, and the result was $4600. So $4500 to $5000.
If my (almost) final budget of $3000 pans out, that would be an additional $1500-$2000. That's assuming I can get the engine and parts for comparable prices here.
Arighty, new pics of my repainted shiny PS pump!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/PS_pump_painted_left_side%28small%29.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/PS_pump_painted_right_side%28small%29.jpg
Block painting and waiting for my OEM parts is next... when we get the next warm day outside.
annoyingrob
04-01-2008, 10:11 AM
who needs warm days when you have a dryer hose to shove up your shirt.
Is it a new pump, or newly repainted? My pump's failing, and I was dumb enough to sell my spare.
who needs warm days when you have a dryer hose to shove up your shirt.
Is it a new pump, or newly repainted? My pump's failing, and I was dumb enough to sell my spare.
Hahhaha! It's newly repainted. I'll be replacing all the gaskets when my PS pump gasket kit arrives with the rest of the OEM stuff.
P.S. I paint in the back yard... not the garage if I can help it. Way too stinky!
azrael
04-01-2008, 10:51 AM
http://digital-angel.net/images/supra%20club/hose.jpg
suprago
04-01-2008, 11:17 PM
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Bliss!
Bri-Guy
04-08-2008, 06:59 AM
Any updates? Must be busy getting things closer to buttoning them up?
Any updates? Must be busy getting things closer to buttoning them up?
I've been out of town for a few days, so I'm playing catch-up this morning. I should have some time to snap a few pics of new parts and my work on the block later on.
NecroCyde
04-08-2008, 04:29 PM
yah sorry robert bruce, the wallace just had to get his vengence, by stealing your spare pump, i kid i kid, thanks for the good deal buddy. evan somehow misplaced the one that came with my 1jz, regardless, have you searched all the forums? did the one from the 2jz not work at all?
azrael
04-08-2008, 08:43 PM
yah sorry robert bruce, the wallace just had to get his vengence, by stealing your spare pump, i kid i kid, thanks for the good deal buddy. evan somehow misplaced the one that came with my 1jz, regardless, have you searched all the forums? did the one from the 2jz not work at all?
Are you drunk?
Time for another update! I can finally show you guys the COMPLETE process of painting my block, from start to finish.
So here's how she looked originally after a sonic cleaning:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Cleaned-block-before-rust-converter%28small%29.jpg
I applied a commercial grade rust converter next. Here is the partially dried result:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Block_right_side_after_rustconverter%28small%29.jp g
Next up, prepping the block. This took a LONG time! I spent several hours here:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Block_prepped_2%28small%29.jpg
And the final result!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Block_right_side_after_paint%28small%29.jpg
The other side:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Block_left_side_after_paint%28small%29.jpg
There you go. I used Duplicolor Engine Enamel (260 degrees or thereabouts) in Aluminum. It looks silver to me. I'm very happy with the result asthetically. I just hope this paint stays on there!
Ok, new parts pics time! The pictures should speak for themselves. (Did you even read this??? I bet you skipped straight to the pics already! lol)
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/New_parts_labelled%28small%29.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Crank_scraper_labelled.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/HKS_headgasket_labelled.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Braided_clutch_line_original_labelled.jpg
Not included are the driftmotion air filter and oil catch can, and ARP rod bolts that I forgot to take pictures of. Everything else will be OEM. Let me know if you want pics of particular parts.
Dan_Gyoba
04-08-2008, 10:33 PM
That block looks purdy. That's what I wanted to do with mine, but reality had different ideas.
That block looks purdy. That's what I wanted to do with mine, but reality had different ideas.
It took a few weeks and several trips to the machine shop to get it all sorted. Let's see....
1. Photograph and then remove all nuts,bolts,plates,etc and bag them.
2. Take block to get sonic cleaned.
3. Go at-er with a wire brush, and then clean and paint on the rust converter.
4. Do another coat of the converter, then let it sit 24hrs.
5. Do some other stuff... (lap the block)
6. Take it to get sonic cleaned again.
7. Prep (4-6 hours at my pace, my attention to detail is loony!)
8. Paint. Wait 15 mins. Another coat. Wait 15 mins, etc etc
9. Take off all the tape and paper.
10. Admire. :-)
Now, about that step 7? Here is an example of LOONY attention to detail! I checked where the gasket will contact the block deck surface, and painted the part where neither the gasket nor the head will cover.
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Block_surface_painted%28small%29.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Attention_to_detail_2%28small%29.jpg
Supra_Newfie
04-09-2008, 05:03 PM
Yeah...ok...you're loony! :)
Looking good though.
Grant
suprago
04-09-2008, 10:11 PM
I think, after reading through this post that Keegan has a thing for dryer hoses. He keeps going on about it!!
Good post by the way. Just wait till you fire it up!! I remember when I fired up mine after the rebuild I had a major squeal I couldn't pin point, sounded like timeing belt, turned to be the AC clutch that was not happy being woken up after a couple months off.
azrael
04-09-2008, 11:23 PM
I think, after reading through this post that Keegan has a thing for dryer hoses. He keeps going on about it!!
Good post by the way. Just wait till you fire it up!! I remember when I fired up mine after the rebuild I had a major squeal I couldn't pin point, sounded like timeing belt, turned to be the AC clutch that was not happy being woken up after a couple months off.
Damn you! You own my soul, but you catch me drunk after a playoff game and so I say boo-urns!
Well, the ENTIRE drivetrain is now out of the car. :-) I just removed the LSD today for a partial disassembly and to change the oil.
annoyingrob
04-12-2008, 07:25 AM
Jim changed his screen name. You're confusing me now.......
What are you putting in for oil in the diff?
Jim changed his screen name. You're confusing me now.......
What are you putting in for oil in the diff?
I was just about to post that! Yeah I've changed my username from 'Heckler' to 'JimR'. It suits me much better.
I'm using Redline 75W-90 in the diff. That's the stuff WITH friction modifiers. We'll see how it likes it... I may need to add some more friction modifier afterwards, depending.
My current mini-project, while I wait for parts....
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/LSD_back_end%28small%29.jpg
Dan_Gyoba
04-13-2008, 10:02 PM
Ah, the A70 pumpkin. Are you going to rebuild it, or just paint it all nice-like?
annoyingrob
04-13-2008, 10:53 PM
needs to be yellow.
LOL! For paint.... we'll see. The only stuff I'm definately doing is popping the case and cleaning as much of the old sludge out as possible. Then pop-er back together with an oil change. She has zero leaks at the moment.
How would you guys go about testing the strength in the clutches? I was able to turn one wheel with the other blocked with a bit of a push on my wheel spokes (15-25lbs). After it starts to turn, it turns fairly easily. Is this any indication of the condition?
All purdy again :-)
Sorry Rob, I don't have any yellow paint! (whew)
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/LSD_front_end_painted%28small%29.jpg
These Comp Cams 975 valve springs I got are making me nervous... apparently they have a 72lbs installed seat pressure, vs stockers with 35lbs. That's at 1.378" lift (I think).
I'll be doubling my seat pressure... hmmm. I do want to run up to 6750 or so repeatedly without worrying about it, but it makes me wonder how the rest of the valvetrain will hold up.
Yahoo! My OEM parts are on the way!!!
In other news.... I assembled my head yesterday with the new valves. It all went fairly smoothly once I got the knack of getting the retainer wedges in. Now I just need to check the clearances and re-shim.
Crank Scraper fitting in progress...
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/crank_scraper_final_fit%28small%29.jpg
It went fairly well considering. I had to do a fair bit of filing to get the scraper on this side to stop hitting the crank and give me the clearance I wanted. The one on the far side only needed a tiny bit of work.
Finally... my OEM parts have arrived!
See how happy I am???!!!!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/New_Parts_Happy_Dance.jpg
lol
Piggity
04-21-2008, 04:21 PM
Hahaha, nice. You look like Jeff Lange everyday at the stealership. What OEM parts did you buy by the way?
Hahaha, nice. You look like Jeff Lange everyday at the stealership. What OEM parts did you buy by the way?
Hehehe.. I bet. See Post #31 for the list.... it's a big one!
The start of my 'new' engine. :D Assembly time, here we come!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Block_right_side_on_stand%28small%29.jpg
Supra_Newfie
04-23-2008, 07:53 AM
mmmm....purdy! :)
When you're done...give it to me and I'll just put it in my car to avoid you the headache of putting it in a piggy! :)
Grant
mmmm....purdy! :)
When you're done...give it to me and I'll just put it in my car to avoid you the headache of putting it in a piggy! :)
Grant
Hahahahaaaaa!!! .............. no :D
Well I've been working away feverishly here (12+ hours per day on occasion).
Here are some pictures of current progress. As you can see I've got the bottom end mostly complete.
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Crank_main_bearings_installed%28small%29.jpg
#1: Main bearings installed and lubed with the Redline goodness
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Crank_installed%28small%29.jpg
#2: (Balanced) Crank installed, ARP moly lube on the bolts
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Rods_and_Pistons_installed%28small%29.jpg
#3: (Balanced) Rods, Pistons, and Oil Pump installed. In this shot you can see the ARP rod bolt nuts, and the ARZ (that's Arizona Performance) oil line pipe.
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Top_of_pistons_installed%28small%29.jpg
#4: The tops of my cleaned up OEM pistons. New rings and pin clips, honed cylinders.
I have some points to make about rod bolt torquing. I used the stretch method with a micrometer to tighten these bolts, as opposed to the torque wrench method and tightening to 45lbs. I noticed SIGNIFICANT differences here.
If you're wondering what I'm talking about with this "stretch" business, or if you're installing any ARP hardware whatsoever, read this: http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechInstall.html
I recorded differences of over 15lbs between rod bolts to achieve the same 0.0065" stretch!
Here's the breakdown of torque values for my rod bolts. These bolts have all been stretched between 0.0063"-0.0067":
Rod# Left-Bolt Right-Bolt
6 60lbs 70lbs
5 55lbs 65lbs
4 65lbs 65lbs
3 55lbs 65lbs
2 65lbs 55lbs
1 55lbs 60lbs
As you can see, the torque values that were required (using ARP moly lube on bolt threads and nut faces) are all over the map, but more importantly, the lowest value is 10lbs higher than the 45lbs specified if you use the torque wrench method alone. To top it off, the proper installation of these bolts is critical! Too loose or too tight and they will snap. That's right, I did say "too loose". Read the ARP docs for more info.
All this business made me think of the head bolts/studs. This clearly demonstrates how much of a difference in friction there can be on threads, and hence why I would always want to use head studs as opposed to head bolts for any engine. The friction of the nut threading onto the new head stud will be more consistent than any threads going into holes in the block.
1st post updated.
Here's a pic of my head that I assembled a week ago and re-shimmed today. Intakes are all between 0.15mm-0.20mm and exhaust between 0.20mm-0.25mm clearance. Thanks to Jeff for helping me out with the shims!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Head_Assembled_Intake_Side%28small%29.jpg
Bri-Guy
04-30-2008, 08:07 AM
Jim,
What kind of exhaust system will you be running? I would think that you definitely want to make sure to get those stinky, foul, burnt fumes away from that nice, shiny engine!!!!
Jim,
What kind of exhaust system will you be running? I would think that you definitely want to make sure to get those stinky, foul, burnt fumes away from that nice, shiny engine!!!!
Hehe, yeah I've been running with a full 3" turbo-back system for a couple years now.
It starts off with a BIC re-routed DDP that I got ceramic coated. That's followed by a 3" Random Technologies cat, then Cooleeze cat-back pipes with a 3" Borla muffler welded inline, and finishing with a Megan Racing muffler with a 4.5" tip.
I should snap some pics of all that stuff in it's current form. It's sitting underneath my car at the moment. :-)
Here's a shot where you can see the tip:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/Back-Left-Dark%28small%29.jpg
DAMN!!!
Mistake #2, and this one isn't fixable. For anyone else out there who may feel like cleaning out your power steering reservoir.... be careful.
There is a fine cloth screen near the bottom of the reservoir which will be covered in gunk and look like the bottom itself... when you start poking around with a screwdriver it tends to break apart. I guess being 20 years old would do that.
More money! gah!
Supra_Newfie
04-30-2008, 10:47 PM
That SUCKS! Gotta be delicate with these old beauties!! Use a Q-tip...not a screwdriver....geez! :)
Grant
Time for another mini-update. I actually need to snap some more photos in the daytime when I think of it. Nighttime ones don't turn out too well.
This is the block status two days ago. The head is on now and I'm working on the transmission. The LSD is already installed.
It was pretty difficult finding the proper socket for the studs! It's a 14mm, 3/8" drive, 12 point, deep, and I had to grind it to make the sidewalls thin enough to fit. After trying numerous places, I got it at Gregg's Distributors for $7. Gregg's is great!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/MHG_on_2%28small%29.jpg
Supra_Newfie
05-05-2008, 02:04 PM
More pics please! :)
Grant
Bri-Guy
05-05-2008, 02:18 PM
J-tube attached? No plans to delete this and go AFR??? Interesting since you have been going all out with everything, correction, EVERYTHING else thus far. What are your plans for fuel? Anything fancy?
Agreed, more pics. I need more supra porn. Even if it is clean.
Here you go.... this is what she looks like TODAY:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Timing_covers_on_2%28small%29.jpg
J-tube attached? No plans to delete this and go AFR??? Interesting since you have been going all out with everything, correction, EVERYTHING else thus far. What are your plans for fuel? Anything fancy?
Agreed, more pics. I need more supra porn. Even if it is clean.
Hehe, I've thought about this, but it's all easy stuff that can be done later. My J-Tube is drilled out so it's not a restriction anymore.
For fuel, I'm still running the stock 440's (cleaned and flowtested) and a stock fuel pump, and she gives me more fuel than I need for this turbo.
When it comes time to upgrade the turbo, all the hard stuff is done and the only things I'll have to replace are my injectors, fuel pump, afpr, and turbo. Everything else is done... the motor can take 450hp no problem.
annoyingrob
05-05-2008, 04:59 PM
Stock fuel pump will flow enough for about 400whp. After that, consider upgrading.
I know this from dyno testing, and injector logging.
A Bosch 044 will fit in-line in the soft section of hose between the body and the motor, and is rated for 300lph of flow, and is almost dead silent.
Dan_Gyoba
05-05-2008, 08:12 PM
The J tube looks out of place on that block...
Heh, to each his own. :-)
Anyone know where the torque value for the knock sensors is listed? I'm having trouble finding it.
Edit: Ah well they're on there now... at around the 20ft-lbs mark.
Rob, thanks for the tip about the fuel pump. I had only heard of walbros and MKIV pumps and I haven't researched it yet. Good to know about the Bosch.
She's all ready!
First, here's a shot of the crank scraper permanently installed. The oil pan bolts came out afterwards of course. They are in the picture to hold down the scrapers while the FIPG underneath has a chance to dry.
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/crank_scraper_permanent_fit%28small%29.jpg
My engine, ready to go in:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Engine_completed_left_side_2%28small%29.jpg
The other side....
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Engine_completed_right_side_2%28small%29.jpg
Now it's install time!
Anyone have some free time this evening or tomorrow? I can't wait to get this engine in the car!!!
Call me if you do.
Cheers,
Jim
399-2232
EDIT: All done! Big thanks to Keegan for helping me out! Pics to follow...
Supra_Newfie
05-09-2008, 10:33 AM
Post the pics of what I missed...damn! I guess you couldn't wait til Saturday! haha...well it better be running tomorrow then! :)
Grant
There's no way it'll be running by Saturday! Well.... ok maybe there's a little chance. But more likely Sunday or Monday. At this point, I have learned to be conservative with my estimates! LOL.
Voila!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Keegan_Engine_right_side%28small%29.jpg
This morning....
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Engine_Installed_left_side%28small%29.jpg
Load levellers are DEFINATELY FTW! That's something I should have picked up (or asked Keegan to bring, doh!) to do this. But she's in... yahoo!!!
P.S. No busted knuckles or broken parts either!
My new PS reservoir.... man is this thing beautiful! My camera really hasn't been doing this engine justice... I'm actually using a handycam in photo mode. If anyone would like to bring a better camera and take some pictures, I'd be much obliged!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/PS_Reservoir_front%28small%29.jpg
The best thing about this reservoir? The original metal cap! You can't get these anymore... they will ship you a plastic one now.
Bri-Guy
05-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Keegan, be careful..... that thing is not a toy!!!!
Someone is going to get spanked with that this summer I predict.
Somehow, it doesn't look as nice in the engine bay as it did on the stand. And no that is not a MKIII comment. I'm a MKIII guy. Just can't see all of the shiny bits I guess.
Nice to see you are nearing completion.
Hehehehe yeah that's the trouble. I really liked the look of the engine with just the block and head and covers.... no intake or exhaust. That looks badass.
Come on over and have a look!
Supra_Newfie
05-09-2008, 01:34 PM
You can SOOOO have that running on Saturday!! :)
I had mine started the next day! 8)
Grant
I have a couple other little things to take care of.... exhaust bung welding, maftpro re-wiring, oil catch can piping, PS system fluid, Clutch fluid, as well as all the regular stuff.
Supra_Newfie
05-09-2008, 01:41 PM
No worries. If you want to save the fluids until I come over, I can help with the flushing etc. Especially the clutch.
Oh and one other thing...pick one...car or computer updates...you can't do both!! :) ahahaha
Grant
I was up till 4am last night!!! I'm taking a wee break before I dive back in.
Supra_Newfie
05-09-2008, 01:52 PM
hahaha....I know...I'm just messing with you! :)
I don't think any of us can argue that you're not putting in your time.
Grant
Well I've been busy busy these last two days! With some great help from Keegan and Grant, I'm just about at the "running" stage. The only stock items left are wiring, belts, radiator, fans, shift knob and console, exhaust pipe, fluids, and that's it!
I haven't got the oil catch can quite done yet... need to get some different sizes of oil pipe for that. And the WB bung relocation will probably be in a couple days. I'll do all that stuff after she's running.
Anyone who wants to come by Sunday, feel free. You can call me at 399-2232. I won't be on here much! :-)
annoyingrob
05-11-2008, 07:20 AM
Jim, if I wasn't getting off of a 12 hour shift in an hour, I would be over there helping.
All those items, that's like 2 hours of work :)
I hope you'll make an apperance with the Surpa at the track?
Heheh, thanks Rob.
I may make an appearance, but I won't be racing yet.
:D:D:D She runs! First try! :D:D:D
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Engine_installed_and_completed%28small%29.jpg
A very big thanks to Grant for helping me get this finished sunday evening. We did have some other unfortunate stuff happen, but I'll leave that for Grant to cover.
Now it's time to put some miles on! Anyone want to go for a spin? :-)))
annoyingrob
05-12-2008, 02:55 AM
yes!
If you're free tomorrow, come pick me up, drive me over to RCTS so I can pick up my new drag slicks, and a new fuel pump, then they can all oggle your beautiful 7M.
;)
azrael
05-12-2008, 02:59 AM
You owe me a ride, Jim!
Bri-Guy
05-12-2008, 07:10 AM
Huh, what's up? That pic you posted looks exactly like before you started this whole thing? I thought you had a new engine in that thing? ;) ;) :D :D
Awesome......what else needs to be said??
Supra_Newfie
05-12-2008, 07:39 AM
Congrats Jim! Too bad i missed the first actual fire up.....it really helps to have some gas! :)
Now to go call the guy who hit my car....ugh....anyone happen to have a good shape rear control arm? Driver's side? Mine is no longer useable. I'll post pics of the damage when I get home.
Anyone also know a paint guy?
:(
Sorry to jack your thread Jim....big Thanks goes out to you as well.
Grant
azrael
05-12-2008, 10:14 AM
Congrats Jim! Too bad i missed the first actual fire up.....it really helps to have some gas! :)
Now to go call the guy who hit my car....ugh....anyone happen to have a good shape rear control arm? Driver's side? Mine is no longer useable. I'll post pics of the damage when I get home.
Anyone also know a paint guy?
:(
Sorry to jack your thread Jim....big Thanks goes out to you as well.
Grant
Oh Jesus, what the hell?
You are naturally entitled to anything off my cars that you need.
Rob: LOL... we'll see! ;-)
Keegan: You bet! But first priority is Grant's stuff.
Bri-guy: Well this was actually a "reliability" rebuild as opposed to a "big power" rebuild that you see a lot more often. Have a look at the top of my first post.
The only real "power" mods this time were head porting and the crank scraper. However, with everything else I did, the engine should now be bulletproof up to 450rwhp. The only thing limiting it are the pistons.
Grant: From one garage to the next eh? :-) I'll be making sure those towtruck guys do it right.
NOW IT'S TIME TO GO DRIVE THIS THING!
Hey Bri-Guy, here's a photo of my exhaust that (I think?) you were wondering about. I've been running this setup for about two years now:
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Pipe_from_side%28small%29.jpg
Going from left-to-right, we have a Random Technologies (Car-Sound) 3" Catalytic Converter (#94009), then Cooleeze cat-back pipes with a Borla
XR1 Sportsman (#40943) welded inline, and finishing with a Megan Muffler (MU-MGTT) with a 4.5" tip.
Not shown is my BIC re-routed Divorced Downpipe.
She sounds great!
Jeff Lange
05-12-2008, 04:57 PM
So, how's it drive?
Jeff
So, how's it drive?
Jeff
Like before... that is, great! Of course I haven't had it over 4000rpm/2psi boost yet. But that will come with time!
My new short shifter is decent. I like the throws. Still needs some working in though. It's a little stiff at the moment. I got it last fall and never had a chance to use it before my car was in the garage permanently.
I got a JK short shifter V3 from suprasport.
Now..... I think it's time to hit the carwash!
azrael
05-12-2008, 05:32 PM
Jim,
We should get the mk2/mk3 photoshoot going!
I still need to see this vehicle.
Jim,
We should get the mk2/mk3 photoshoot going!
I still need to see this vehicle.
We should do the photoshoot friday! I'm very busy tonight, but maybe tomorrow or wednesday we can go for a spin.
annoyingrob
05-12-2008, 10:39 PM
I got one of those Suprasport shifters. It's pretty decent. I have a few small gripes about them, but that's really from me abusing my transmission. If you haven't already, fill the transmission up with some Redline MT-90. It'll make a world of difference.
Seriously, go get some MT-90.
I got er in there already! :-) Since 2005.
You know, I may be able to swing by your place tomorrow. I'm going very near RCTS for business.... and I'm taking the supra of course!
annoyingrob
05-12-2008, 11:31 PM
Picked up my JZA80 pump at RCTS today, so I don't need to go. Tomorrow's going to consist of waking up, and installing it before I need to go to work at 7pm.
I wouldn't mind taking a spin in your car though :)
Bri-Guy
05-13-2008, 07:27 AM
Hmmmmm, haven't seen this car in person, yet. But no question which one I would pick when considering the "new" 1990 red MKIII up at Country Hills and this "used" 1989 red MKIII with a "new" engine that somebody spent many, many, many hours on.
No Doubt, Jim, hands down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought some of you might be interested in my break-in procedure, so here it is:
In the garage (0km):
- I put in Shell Formula (mineral oil) 10w-30/5w-30, absolutely no synthetics.
- Ran the car on the jackstands just to warm it up to operating temp (idling) which took about 10 mins, and then shut it off and let it cool down completely overnight.
The first leg (0km-200km):
- ~200km's before the first change. Actually I would have changed it sooner but I ran out of mineral oil.
- Filter change too at this point. Using 90915-YZZD3 filters.
Driving points for the first leg:
- I stay under 4000rpm
- No lugging (under 1500 rpm and over 1/2 throttle)
- Use a range of engine rpms, don't stay at any one rpm for too long
- No heavy throttle for over 10 seconds...... HOWEVER: I am definately getting on it for short durations between 2500-4000rpm at minimum boost, after which I let the throttle off completely while staying in gear and let the ecu cut all fuel so the cylinders cool down. I have an EGT gauge to help me with this.
The second leg (200-1500km):
- Still using mineral oil with a new filter.
- This is where I am now.
Driving points for the second leg:
- A bit more highway driving, changing gears more than necessary.
- Engine rpms under 5000rpm until about 500km's.
- Getting on the gas (but not excessive) anywhere over 1000rpm's.
The third and final leg (1500km-???):
- Oil change to Redline 5w-30.
- Filter change to 90915-20004 (Jeff's specialty).
- Go racing!!!
I haven't gone into the WHY of all this in this post... but my reasoning is based (in-part) on these sites:
- http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm
- http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=590862
- (And the infamous!) http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
azrael
05-14-2008, 11:44 AM
Hurry up.
I want to see this thing SHRED.
Bri-Guy
05-14-2008, 12:38 PM
Come on.....
You are so vague about everything.;) ;)
Has this thread been stickied yet, with all of the information/documentation it contains.
Wait, I guess that it doesn't require a sticky, it is almost always at the top of the list anyways.
Hurry up.
I want to see this thing SHRED.
As do I man, as do I! I've got ~250km's on the clock since monday, city-only driving.
Bri-Guy
05-15-2008, 11:08 AM
I'm volunteering to take it out and spend some seat time racking up the mileage for you. Can guarantee that you will be beyond the 1500km milestone by tomorrow night. For Secret Street.
How does that sound?
I'm volunteering to take it out and spend some seat time racking up the mileage for you. Can guarantee that you will be beyond the 1500km milestone by tomorrow night. For Secret Street.
How does that sound?
Haha! What would your wife think about you pulling an all-nighter with another "girl" eh?
Keros
05-16-2008, 02:36 PM
Got to go for a spin with Jim in this beautiful car... Besides being estetically nice inside and out (my humblest compliments)... it's like riding on a phsycotic beast on a really short leash.
When Jim gives it a bit of beans, you know that car wants to go FAST...
But it's always tied down by the leash...
I can't wait to see it completely unchained. It will be Epic.
I've just past the 500km mark! Time to give er a little more revs.
Crank pulley bolt tightened to spec (Thanks Don!). I HIGHLY recommend this as a point to check if you suspect this is loose.
We've all seen what ensues when that pulley gets a mind of its own. :D
(I also just finished the piping to my oil catch can. I'll snap a pic after I've gone for a spin to test it out.)
So here's my current oil catch can and piping:
*** First image now out-of-date ***
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/PCV_top_of_engine_with_annotations.jpg
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/PCV_oil_catch_can_with_annotations.jpg
Now the only thing I wouldn't mind replacing is my cap-off on the post-TB pipe. If anyone knows of permanent caps that would work here, post up! My current piping is 1/2" heater hose.
The BILL:
A few people have been asking me what my total cost was for this rebuild. I'll give you some major categories and prices here. All prices include shipping where applicable:
OEM parts: $920
Aftermarket parts: $854
Third party (machine) work: $1254
Sub-Total: $3028
New Tools: $400
Shop/Garage supplies: $110
Grand Total: $3538
annoyingrob
05-18-2008, 11:46 PM
Random question: does your turbo surge?
Bri-Guy
05-19-2008, 08:21 AM
Relocate the WB bung?
What is wrong with the BIC location? BIC seems to usually have planned things pretty well.
Random question: does your turbo surge?
Nope. It never has (AFAIK). I am running a stock trim CT-26.
Relocate the WB bung?
What is wrong with the BIC location? BIC seems to usually have planned things pretty well.
When I originally got the downpipe, Randy had put in the stock 02 sensor mount point, which was fine. After that, I had an Innovate LC-1 WB to install, so I got another bung (small round style) installed about two inches behind the stocker.
Now the problem here is that with the stock CT-26 at ~14psi, my exhaust gas temperatures are too high for the WB. It doesn't like anything over 750c and my EGT sensor (pre-turbo) reads over 850c on the roadcourse.
That is why I want to relocate (actually just plug and put another one in) my WB bung so it is about a foot further down the downpipe.
After I get all that done, I will actually be removing the stock 02 sensor and running in permanent open loop, using a resistor to prevent the ECU from throwing a code. But that's another story!
annoyingrob
05-19-2008, 10:16 PM
I've been meaning to re-locate my wideband for that same reason. I hit huge temps pre turbo.
azrael
05-19-2008, 10:19 PM
Your exhaust temperatures are ridiculous.
That's what happens when you stuff 325 litres of air per second through a two inch hole! LOL :-)
azrael
05-19-2008, 10:58 PM
Well, maybe if you thought about how the AIR feels about all of this, you wouldn't ask so much of it!
Well, maybe if you thought about how the AIR feels about all of this, you wouldn't ask so much of it!
Hehehehe... the AIR lets us all know when it's had enough. Melted pistons and cracked/blown turbos come to mind....
Ooooohhhh keep that stuff away from my new engine! lol
azrael
05-20-2008, 12:04 AM
The way I see it, the combustion chamber is like a college party. The cylinder walls are like the house, and the piston and rod are like the social forces that drive like (or unlike) people together.
You've got your male and female populations both in attendance. Let's have your big sweaty college jocks represent air, and your skanky sorority girls represent fuel. You have to invite both in an adequate proportion to keep everyone at the party happy. You want to have more guys than girls, because naturally, the dudes bring all the beer and alcohol and music and general rowdy good times. Really, not every guy needs a lady -- the comp sci students someone invited don't really do too well with women anyways, so they can wait. But eventually, as those forces of social interaction start working faster and faster, something's got to give, and the big sweaty football team that came straight from practice to drink the keg start to get angry if there's not enough sorority hoes in attendance, and they start to smash shit, throwing chairs through the windows and shit, and lighting stuff on fire.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, when you're having a college party, remember to invite bitches, or else your new engine will blow up.
Supra_Newfie
05-20-2008, 07:42 AM
HAHAHA!! That's awesome Keegan!! :)
Grant
Bri-Guy
05-20-2008, 08:43 AM
Very good analogy. Hadn't thought of it that way.
Though I would argue that I could handle more than 1 lady, as long as my wife doesn't find out.......;) ;)
All in theory of course.
Supra_Newfie
05-20-2008, 12:50 PM
Very good analogy. Hadn't thought of it that way.
Though I would argue that I could handle more than 1 lady, as long as my wife doesn't find out.......;) ;)
All in theory of course.
The limits of a man's....drive....is all in theory! ;)
Grant
Bri-Guy
05-20-2008, 01:10 PM
The limits of a man's....drive.... ;)
Grant
Or his budget.... Oops, did I say that?
HAHAHAAAAA!!!! Awesome stuff! We derail threads "in style!" around here! Keep it coming! lol
annoyingrob
05-20-2008, 08:38 PM
The thread has served its purpse, therefore it must be derailed :p
Supra_Newfie
05-20-2008, 10:12 PM
I agree with Rob....and as always...it involved/started with Keegan! :)
Grant
Just for the record, I jacked up the car this evening and did another oil change at the 800km mark. Still using dino oil. It came out brown... a good sign.
I have the downpipe off too, and I'll be getting the second bung welded in on wednesday.
Watch me RE-rail this thread when I get one of:
- Spalshield smoked tail light vinyl (lighter than Rob's)
- 16:1 AFR lean cruise going
- Mishimoto MKIII rad (LOL!)
Bri-Guy
05-21-2008, 05:35 AM
Yes, I'm thinking that this thread hasn't run it's course just yet. This will more likely be the tale of Jim's perpetual build.
Love it.
Jim, have you ever considered a remote oil filter and thermostatically controlled oil cooler? Might have been something that would come in handy when you are changing the oil every second tank of gas.
The oil filter relocation and full-flow thermostatically controlled system is in the same category as big turbo etc etc. It's one of those things that are easy to do later on. I will definately do this if I ever decide to ramp up the power some more.
Now, oil changes? Check this out!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Fumoto_oil_valve_on_car%28small%29.jpg
That is THE way to drain your oil. Fumoto F104N oil drain valves are FTW! Compared to this old thing.....
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/Stock_oil_plug.jpg
ugh!
lol. The filter change is the only annoying bit. But I can get in there fairly well, and a plastic bag over the filter works really well to avoid oil spilling.
I got my wideband relocated today, and I'm running without a stock 02 sensor now! Time to retune large sections of my fuel/VE maps. gah.
Actually, while I think of it, here's what my current map looks like (before this latest change). I will post up a picture of the redone map once I am done and you guys can visually see the differences. The main thing will be no more huge red spike to avoid going lean on part throttle and high boost!
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/VE_graph_with_stock_02_sensor.jpg
annoyingrob
05-22-2008, 06:17 AM
TPS enrichments anyone?
16.0:1 AFR Lean Cruise, yeah baby!!!
I just got back from a trip to B.C., and I did some calculations along the way... I got a whopping 26.6 km's per litre from Lake Louise to Golden, and 8.1 km's per litre on the way back, for an average of 17.35KM/L or 40.8MPG, and 12.5KM/L or 29.7MPG from Canmore back to Calgary @ New-Age Grandma (AKA: Mostly Responsible Citizen) speeds.
Needless to say, I like this kind of tuning power!
Funkycheeze
05-28-2008, 08:58 PM
you know, i have seen those valves before, but the chance of getting it knocked off by some road debris leading to engine oil leak and failure is just too ghastly for me to contemplate
or if it just decided to open...
:eek:
you know, i have seen those valves before, but the chance of getting it knocked off by some road debris leading to engine oil leak and failure is just too ghastly for me to contemplate
or if it just decided to open...
:eek:
It's a very sturdy unit, however I was worried about that too, so I did a few things:
- I used RTV gasket material instead of the regular gasket which brings the valve 1cm higher.
- I cut the end nipple so it's half as long
- I had the good luck of the locking mechanism ending up on the up side when tightened.
Given all this, the bottom of the plug extends at most 1cm lower than my crossmember, and my plastic engine undercover would hit first. The other bonus is that the oil pan is right inline with the front wheels, so it's much less critical than say halfway between the front and rear wheels.
I have mitigated the risk as much as I can, and the rest I will live with given the major benefits of this thing!
There is a locking clip available, but the stock setup requires two distinct motions to open the valve. The handle piece must be lifted up about 2cm, and then you rotate the handle perpendicular to that original motion with maybe 10lbs force. I trust this setup.
Wow holy novel about a drain valve hey! LOL :-)
Funkycheeze
05-29-2008, 06:47 PM
I think its more of a concern in the A60 chassis due to the front sump oil pan, and the fact it hangs lower in relation to the engine crossmember. Good idea though.
No comments on the mileage numbers? :dunno: LOL I guess I'm the one footing the bill at the pump!
But I'm very happy with the way they turned out. Next mini-project is to retorque the headstuds and change the oil and filter again. I'm going to do a compression and leakdown test for shits and giggles. I should have done a compression test right after the rebuild, so I could compare the two!
annoyingrob
05-29-2008, 09:33 PM
what sort of EGTs do you see cruising that lean?
what sort of EGTs do you see cruising that lean?
It depends on load and duration.... anywhere from 550c to 650c in the exhaust manifold collector immediately before the turbo, when I'm out on the highway.
Around town driving it will usually stay around 500c plus or minus ~150c.
Compared to before.... there really isn't much difference. It's hard to be specific because my spark plugs have changed, but I'd say between 50c to 100c hotter.
annoyingrob
05-29-2008, 10:46 PM
650c, that's not too bad, that's pretty close to what I used to see cruising at 14.7:1.
Funkycheeze
05-30-2008, 04:58 PM
That IS good mileage, but if I want that, I will drive my TDI (38 mpg city)
As a side note, do you have a socket that will fit on those head stud nuts without needing to remove the cams? If you do, I would really appreciate it if I could borrow it for a day to check mine.
You bet. I got a Proto brand 14mm 12pt deep socket from Gregg's Distributors, and then ground the sidewalls to make it thin enough to fit. As soon as I get mine done (saturday) you can borrow it.
Funkycheeze
05-30-2008, 10:30 PM
Thank christ - I will probably do it in a couple weeks, and was dreading the cam removal part.
Well I just completed the final oil and filter change of the break-in period.
With over 1600km's on the clock, she is running like a champ at FULL BOOST!
Here's a shot of my current Volumetric Efficiency Table... you can see the changes from running without a stock 02 sensor.
http://supra.codesilver.ca/pics/supra/2008-rebuild/JR_VE_Table_no_02_sensor.png
annoyingrob
06-03-2008, 12:47 AM
Jim, are you still running with EGR? How did you tune around it?
Supra_Newfie
06-03-2008, 08:05 AM
I likey this car! :)
Thanks for coming over last night Jim. The car pulls nicely!
Grant
Jim, are you still running with EGR? How did you tune around it?
Yes I still have the EGR, and I actually have not ever considered it until now. Since I run full-time AFR Tracking across the load spectrum (idle,low,mid,wot) I presume that my WB would pick up the decrease in available oxygen and the Maftpro would compensate accordingly.
Is there something else going on here that you're thinking of?
I likey this car! :)
Thanks for coming over last night Jim. The car pulls nicely!
Grant
You bet. I'm happy you can move forward on your own car again!
Supra_Newfie
06-03-2008, 11:48 AM
You bet. I'm happy you can move forward on your own car again!
You and me both!! :)
Grant
I've just re-routed my PCV system to use the TB port again, after reading these posts:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72991
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43167
Reasons/pics to follow...
annoyingrob
06-03-2008, 05:56 PM
Is there something else going on here that you're thinking of?
The EGR works by mixing in exhaust (a neutral, non combustable gas) into the intake, effectively lowering the displacement of your motor. With a MAF based system, this is compensated automatically by the fact that the AFM will draw in less air, however with a MAP based system, your VE will change, and you will either be adding too much fuel when the EGR kicks on, or too little when it kicks off.
I was curious if you were finding tuning a littly finicky around partial throttle, where the EGR normally operates. I know a lot of people tuning on MAP usually disable/remove the EGR for simplicity in tuning.
If you are indeed running compensation based on wideband feedback (woot! Best feature ever), then it shouldn't be that big of a worry, as it'll compensate eventually. I just hope the EGR doesn't stick on during WOT, then suddenly shut itself off.
Funkycheeze
06-03-2008, 07:36 PM
I've just re-routed my PCV system to use the TB port again, after reading these posts:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72991
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43167
Reasons/pics to follow...
For reference, pulling a vacuum on the crankcase in this way is only necessary on CT26 equipped cars, otherwise don't worry about it.
Rob: I am running speed density with an IAT sensor in my 3000 pipe and a MAP sensor T'd off the air surge tank vacuum. I haven't had any significant difficulties tuning mid-throttle.
Ryan: I am still running a stock CT-26.
Well I had a fun day at the track today... great first round. But on my second round about halfway through my engine decides to take a leak. She still runs, but not properly. I have my fucking suspicions... but I'll wait until I do a leakdown test tonight or tomorrow to see what's going on.
Anyone know of ANOTHER reason why coolant would spray out the overflow?
I have a full log of the session on the laptop, so at least I know everything the maftpro records. That's a starting point.
azrael
06-03-2008, 10:43 PM
Remember that hoping and praying we said we were going to do?
Supra_Newfie
06-03-2008, 10:52 PM
NO!! Hopefully everything checks out ok. I'm with Keegan on the hopes and prayers!
Grant
annoyingrob
06-04-2008, 12:00 AM
how many kms do you have on that motor, 2k?
Sounds about how many I had when I blew my 1JZ :(
Yeah, about 1800-2000kms. I suspect severe detonation. Nothing will take that kind of abuse for long, no matter how well it's built.
Anyone want to help me make short work of a compression and leakdown test today? The funny thing is that I just did one about three days ago! LOL :-) So I know exactly what the good values are.
azrael
06-04-2008, 10:40 AM
Jim, give me a call. I might have to run around 5:15 to pick my lady friend up from the airport, but I should be free until then, unless something important comes up.
Supra_Newfie
06-04-2008, 10:57 AM
That sucks Jim. At least you do have something to compare to.
Detonation, that would be caused by running too lean? Still learning the perils of Forced Induction. I know it can happen with NA, just rarer.
But the main thing remains to be answered. Is the BHG b-gone true? Damaged piston versus BHG?
Grant
In this case... fuel grade actually. I was running a mix of 89 and 91 at 16psi. Now that I know the limits, and what knock sounds like, I'll be doing things differently. Like draining the tank and putting in 94 octane before doing extended high load.
I still don't know exactly what's wrong, but Keegan and I will find out (at least what it is not) this afternoon.
I should have also ran a richer mixture (10.8:1) or so instead of the usual 11.8:1 because of the amount of heat generated continuously.
I have a full log of the session, so I know my AFR's and intake temperatures etc were fine. My IAT ranged from 100f/37c to 145f/60c, including at 16psi. I'm not sure how fast it reacts. That would be nice to know.
Supra_Newfie
06-04-2008, 02:16 PM
Very good. Hopefully no permanent damage that can't be "easily" repaired.
Enjoy your day of diagnosis. Mine was fun! Thanks for helping!
Grant
Dan_Gyoba
06-04-2008, 05:53 PM
For reference, pulling a vacuum on the crankcase in this way is only necessary on CT26 equipped cars, otherwise don't worry about it.
Whoa whoa whoa... hold the phone here...
Is this only because of the seals on the CT26 then? I had thought that pulling vacuum in the crankcase was a good thing for any motor, as they're designed to run this way.
So none of the other (front main, rear main, ets etc) seals need the vacuum to be ther eto work properly?
FUCK FUCK FUCK ........ I'm pretty sure my piston rings are toast.
For the leakdown test:
Cylinder - Result
1 - good
2 - bad
3 - bad
4 - good
5 - bad
6 - good
And the compression test:
1 - good
2 - ok
3 - didn't even register
4 - good
5 - good (oddly enough)
6 - good
All bad cylinders were free-flowing out the pcv pipes. Nothing disturbing the radiator or exhaust or inlet valves that we could find. The only conclusion I can come up with here is pointing downwards. But please, offer up some alternate possibilities!
Ryan, I hear you have a handy yoke for looking down spark plug holes. Any chance we can meet up and use it?
Well I'm going to sit on this for a little while.... make some money doing work that I get paid for, and then delve into her again. At least this time around I won't have to do half as much cleaning and everything is new!
Jim
As for the PCV routing stuff, after reading the posts on SM, my conclusion is that a crankcase vacuum is always good in any engine, to minimize oil contamination over time from the blowby gases, and give all the seals an extra margin of reliability.
Supra_Newfie
06-04-2008, 07:42 PM
Well damn that Jim. Sorry to hear. If you want a hand some day ripping her back open, just let me know. I owe you some time. :)
Good luck with it,
Grant
Dan_Gyoba
06-04-2008, 08:16 PM
OUCH!
After all that work putting it together, too.
Well, here's hoping that it's just the rings, and you're driving again.
azrael
06-04-2008, 08:34 PM
It wasn't pretty.
Hoping it's just the rings. Sounds like rings to me.
It's ironic, but I wish it was the headgasket! LOL. I guess I did such a good job on it this time around that it's not the weakest link anymore. Very ironic...
I'm leaking coolant from somewhere though, so we'll see.
Doing the rings means I have to pull the whole engine. If I have piston damage, that means forgies. That's why I feel like making some money first! :-)
Rob, I just read on SM that you have a knock sensor / headphone setup. Tell me about it!
I also just learned that the EGR system helps prevent knock when enabled (high load, part throttle). Cool. Now I need a WOT knock preventer. :p
Hmmm... more pondering. I wonder how permanent open-loop affects the EGR operation, if at all.
Funkycheeze
06-04-2008, 09:16 PM
I have a boreoscope, but there is no point since your diagnosis is definetly, 100%, no question about it, piston rings. Probably what happened was that the rings fucking themselves against the bores generated lots of extra heat and made your overflow, well, over flow.
I would definetly go with forgies this time around - if you reused the stock pistons and just put on new rings/honed the bores, it is alot harder to get the rings to seat as opposed to on a fresh overbore. Also i would reccomend a more extended break-in period (1000k no boost, then another 3000k taking it REALLY easy, both on dino oil, then another 3000 on synthetic still with no track time.
Also, while I am sure you get a little extra oil contamination from not pulling a vac on the crankcase, even with a really tight motor I still get plenty of pressure pushing the crank vapours out from blowby. My engine is so far from stock i doubt it would make any difference.
Also, take out that EGR - it just puts extra load on the cooling system from the gas cooler at the back of the head. You ever wonder why #6 ALWAYS blows on the exhaust side when you get a BHG? You can plug the intake ports with blockoff plates, take the cooler off and block the hole with a plug (I have a pipe tap that fits)
I can see that we would agree on many things yet disagree on many others. :-) I'd rather talk this over than hash it out on the forum.
annoyingrob
06-04-2008, 11:00 PM
Well jim, to fix it, you can do it the easy way, without re-honing, or you can take the motor out and re-hone it. With only 2000km on the motor, you might get away with not re-honing.
As for the headphones, "HKS A/F knock amp"! It's about $700. It's actually two devices in one. First, it's a wideband O2 sensor, and display. It uses an NTK wideband sensor, and is probably one of the fastest responding, and precise units on the market for the price. It also hooks into the stock knock sensors for two purposes. First, it uses them like microphones, and allows you to listen to them with a set of headphones. Second, it also electronically analizes the signal, and can display how much your engine is knocking.
Both the wideband, and knock level signals are also outputable to another device, like your maft pro. I know you already have a wideband, and I know a lot of people around here don't like HKS due to their price, but honestly, I think it's the most important piece of tuning equipment I own.
I can swing by some time and show you if you're curious. I'm actually considering buying their new version (simply for estetics), so I may put this one up for sale some time soon.
Jeff Lange
06-05-2008, 02:06 AM
I still need to find time to take a look at it, heh.
Jeff
I would like to have a look at the bores and piston tops and headgasket and valves. That way I can make a proper decision on whether to pull the engine or not.
FYI I had 142psi across all cylinders on sunday and the leakdown test was at the 20% mark (the low end of the green side) so my rings were fully broken in to the best of my knowledge.
Rob: I guess it depends on how ugly the previous model is! hahaha :-)
Jeff: Yeah! one of these days...
Keros
06-05-2008, 12:20 PM
I cringed at the text you sent me about the car acting up... I'm hoping it's not as bad as it seems :(
Funkycheeze
06-09-2008, 04:12 PM
I would like to have a look at the bores and piston tops and headgasket and valves. That way I can make a proper decision on whether to pull the engine or not.
FYI I had 142psi across all cylinders on sunday and the leakdown test was at the 20% mark (the low end of the green side) so my rings were fully broken in to the best of my knowledge.
Rob: I guess it depends on how ugly the previous model is! hahaha :-)
Jeff: Yeah! one of these days...
20% leak on a fresh rebuild? I had like 4% on mine after 7000...
20% leak on a fresh rebuild? I had like 4% on mine after 7000...
My gauge starts at 10%, anything below that is in the 'set' area. So I was 'setting' in the middle of that range (4-6%) and reading 18-19%.
I would say any differences can probably be attributed to piston ring end gap (I'm running uncut stockers), valve seal (3 angle grind for you?), etc.
Well it's time to pull er apart. I have decided to pull the engine again after checking the oil. It's pretty dark... far worse than it should be after the 1500km to 2000km it was used for (that means 500km's).
Assuming the root cause was detonation, I don't see how the break-in period would have any effect. My intuition tells me that badly sealing rings would actually resist damage due to detonation, because more gas could get by them before they are forced outward, which would mean less pressure and less heat. That is just a hypothesis though.
As for the EGR, that system actually helps prevent detonation through routing inert gases back into the cylinders, which lower the combustion temperatures by displacing oxygen so there is more unburnt fuel cooling things down. The EGR does not operate at WOT, but it does operate in the mid-throttle maps where detonation often occurs.
I believe one of the main reasons for BHG's occuring on #6 is simply because it is furthest away from the fan, and right beside the turbo. I would fault an insufficient cooling system for this, more than anything else. Speaking of that, even though my #6 cylinder is not leaking at all, I will be getting an upgraded Fluidyne or PWR rad.
I'll know what it really looks like in a couple days... anyone who wants to help with teardown is more than welcome! :-)
azrael
06-12-2008, 03:15 PM
Just let me know, buddy!
Supra_Newfie
06-13-2008, 08:09 AM
I'll see when I have some spare time coming up. I was going to help Keegan out on Sunday, not sure how busy my nights are next week.
Cheers,
Grant
Thanks guys. I'll be pretty busy this weekend myself with other stuff, but I expect to get rolling again next week.
She's out......... again! :-) Man I love load-levellers....
I had lots of free time today and lots of help from my cousin who just got into town, so we pulled the engine and it's on the stand now. Disassembly starts tomorrow!
Some ominous things I noticed are *apparent* coolant leaks around the headgasket. I actually found some coolant in the bellhousing of all places!
Edit: Nah.... red herring... see future posts.
annoyingrob
06-15-2008, 10:08 PM
hmm, sounds to me like somebody's surfaces weren't prep'd properly.
Prepped for 12,000 psi? I don't think so! :-)))
annoyingrob
06-15-2008, 10:21 PM
Prepped for 12,000 psi? I don't think so! :-))) Yeah man, you should have welded the aluminum to the cast iron!
Cough.......put a 2JZ in.....cough.........
HAHAHAAAA!! Yeah I'm tempted! But I'm more tempted to pull this thing apart and do whatever it takes to make it solid, because I know it can be reliable at WOT. The first 1800km's showed that.
The coolant in the bellhousing is actually a red herring. It must have come from when I was draining the block. I was holding the drain plug in to stop it coming out too fast, and it sprayed around a bit. That's all.
Supra_Newfie
06-16-2008, 09:02 AM
Reliable....1800 kms....I think we can make anything reliable for that long!! :)
Glad it's out. I might drop by next weekend. ;) Car will hopefully be moving tonight! Picking up the new rotors at UPS tonight. However, I don't think I'll be driving the Supra to visit you anymore! :) haha
Grant
Keros
06-16-2008, 10:51 AM
No BHG... yet... that's a good sign.
Hopefully it's just rings. Hopefully...
annoyingrob
06-16-2008, 05:41 PM
maybe you put a JDM tyte vent hole in your piston......
maybe you put a JDM tyte vent hole in your piston......
I'll find out in a couple days....
However, I can tell you guys that my oil and coolant have mixed. I dropped off some samples for fluid analysis, and my oil had 2.5% water, 2.5% antifreeze, and signs of piston, ring, and bearing wear. I'll know the results of my coolant and fuel tomorrow.
annoyingrob
06-16-2008, 10:22 PM
I still say it's all surface prep.
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